Response to Roy Peter Clark

Roy Peter Clark's "I Will Not Use Writing as Punishment, I Will Not...," is about the problem with students and teachers regarding the idea of writing as a type of punishment. Clark tells us that when teachers use writing as a consequence of doing something bad, then students automatically associate writing with bad feelings and thoughts. Once teachers do this to children, they will continue to not like writing for the rest of their lives, because of the bad experiences. Clark goes on to suggest that he only way to fix the problem is to simply find alternative ways to discipline them. Writing should be portrayed as an amazing thing that allows students to express themselves, acquire knowledge, develop new skills and discover new ideas. I am very impressed wih everything that Clark has to say. I remember a time in grade school when even I was punished through writing. I understand where Clark is coming from when he says that teachers should provide alternatives to punishment, but what exactly does he mean? After all, writing as punishment truly is the easiest way to discipline students (many teachers have said so themselves as stated in the journal). What are some better alternatives to writing as punishment?

Response to I Will not Use Writing as a Punishment

Clark, who wrote this open-form essay over 20 some odd years ago discusses and destructiveness towards young students of using writing as a punishment. He suggests that if this is continued eventually no one will ever want to write because it is considered a thing that happens if you break an academic "law." He then continues on with personal stories with his children where he saw how their enthusiasm was quickly diminishing due to this idea of a punishment which "creates the illusion of an educational and counseling purpose, and it seems a humane alternative to suspension or paddling (Clark 9)."
I completely agree with Clark's perspective on this matter. Not only is it a lazy way to punish someone it is destructive for the future of their academics. I also cant say i have ever heard a teacher tell me how fun writing an essay was, the only thing they would say "we have another essay due in a week, sorry its required by the state" which was their way of making it a requirement which was not to be enjoyed. But we seem to be in a time where writing as a punishment is decreasing in the teaching community seeing as i have never had to experience this.

Response to Roy Peter Clark

I agree with what this article is saying. It made me think of all the writings I have done and how they've always felt as if they were some form of punishment. I don't mind to write, but being made to write a long paper on a boring topic seems like punishment. I've always hated to write these forms of papers or essays for class, and I believe that it's the reason why I don't like to write much.

Response to The Discourse of Academics

I like what Rose said about how intimidating it is to be in a group which act far too differently from your origin and how it can be difficult. As the matter of fact, I'm currently in that situation. I came from a small country in south east asia and it is sometimes very hard and scary to interact with people, as English is my second language. Plus, I get her idea about how people have to talk differently in different kinds of situation. I noticed that the way I talk to my friends and the way I talk to my professors and the way I talk to my parents are very different. I also get her idea about how people act differently on materials that they are not familiar with. The constant fear of whether I get it right or wrong whenever I answer an unfamiliar question is just so tiring.
Overall, I think it is a good article. I like it especially because it states about a situation remotely similar to the situation I'm in right now.

Roy Peter Clark Response

Clark talks about reading being a punishment, which I agree it can sometimes feel like. We're told to write based on amounts and deadlines as opposed to content so it can be unmotivating to write for school. I wish it wasn't this way because I like to write. I still, however, find it hard to enjoy writing for class assignments.

Discourse of Academics Response

Rose discusses how the gap between educated school-speak and street-speak in his article. He says that the difference can be alienating for underprivileged youth and that, to change that, we need to give them more opportunities to write and explain why they feel left out.

I agree that there is a difference between the way we talk to our friends and family and to professors. I hadn't really thought of it before but I realize that I take extra effort to sound polite and professional when talking to or emailing professors as opposed to friends. I think that, besides students, this article was directed at teachers. It could possibly be a way to try and change the problem from both levels.

Roy Peter Clark Response

This article made me realize how much I look at writing as a form of punishment! Now that I think about it, I have always looked at it as a form of punishment. I have always absolutely dreaded the thought of a five page paper, or a two page essay if I did something wrong. This makes so much sense towards my horrible attitude towards writing for no reason.

The Discourse of Academics Response

I thought that this article wasn't going to be as interesting as it was. The more I got into it, I realized how true it is that we converse with our professors and teachers so differently from our friends. We use a different vernacular, and when we speak to our elders, we tend to try to expand our vocabulary. I never thought about the way I speak compared to others in terms of the different educations that we received in school. I think about how I understand something right off the bat, or I can relate to something really well, but how someone else can be so lost and confused  by something I may view as "simple" and vice versa.

Response to Roy Peter Clark

I can totally understand where Clark is going with this essay. When I was younger I felt like the big essays were to punish us instead of help us. Now I see that all of those papers prepared me for the future but back then I hated it!
I felt that way until I started classes I actually love and then writing became easier. I like how he says that a teacher wouldn't punish a kid with having to draw a picture or do science, ect. That shows you that writing is being associated with punishment. If a teacher made me do math or something I enjoy for punishment I wouldn't be where I'm at right now. I feel like that is the reason I'm not as skilled in writing and reading because that will always make me think I'm being punished.

The Discourse of Academics

I found this article very interesting, now that I think about it I can tell the way I talk to a teacher or professor is different that how I would approach a fellow student with the same issue. I had a good relationship with some of my teachers and when I would talk to them as a friend it would be different that if I talked to them in class. I feel lost in some classes that imply that I should know some prerec material that I never learned. Today in class was a good example, when we did math problems, I felt extremely comfortable answering those questions being an engineering major, but I wouldn't necessarily be comfortable answering a english questions that I didn't know. I like how he uses the example of religion, when you're raised a certain religion and brought into a community with multiple cultures it might be intimidating.

As said in class today, Rose's method of ending the piece with a question really made me think over the whole article and question it in my own life. Overall this was a good article, it really had me thinking of all the different ways I talk to different groups of people, and I appreciate that this is getting brought up in class because I feel like I'm on the same page as everyone.

Respond to Roy Clark

I completely agree with what was said about writing as punishment. That is very true now that I think about it. People associate writing as a problem and a punishment now because we were told to write "a certain amount of pages on a painfully boring topic by insert date here." I absolutely understand what he meant and I too find it horrible.

Response: Roy Clark

In Clarks opening sequence I wasn't quite sure where he was going with the whole fifth grade girls understanding Shakespeare miracle. Don't get me wrong, it was great, and good on them, it just didn't seem to connect to me. After those paragraphs were finished, and he started the discussion of writing as punishment, it became more clear to me how it all ties together. I am firm believer that writing should not be used as a form of punishment, writing is fun and expressive, not a torture device. With that in mind it was easy to see what he meant by bad memories being associated with the things we were doing as they happened. As I thought more about the reading I saw the same thing but flipped. On the opposite side of things, good memories are associated with good things we were doing at the time. I liked his message about encouraging and helping students at a young age to appreciate literature, and just writing in general. It builds a foundation for literary skills that will be needed all throughout their lives.

Response to Roy Peter Clark

Clark uses an open-form article to discuss how the enforcement of writing is misconstrued.  He points out that teachers often use writing as a form of punishment but fail to see the negative consequences it has on the students' attitudes about writing.  He suggests that the reasons for using writing as a form of punishment is that "it is easy to control, it creates the illusion of an educational and counseling purpose, and it seems a humane alternative to suspension or paddling (Clark 9)."  He also points out that the "fear of writing... is related to low self-concept and low self-confidence (Clark 10)."
I believe Clark is correct about the negative consequences of using writing as a form of punishment.  All my teachers in the past have not discussed writing as an enjoyable activity.  They handed out our assignments, told us about the topic and length of the paper and that was the end of it.  Some of them showed their enthusiasm towards writing but they didn't pass the enthusiasm onto us.  However, I've had great experiences with peer review groups.  The fact that others will read your article forces you to pay closer attention to what you write about.     

Response: chap.1 and discourse of academics

In chapter one of ABW I found that some of the content he discussed about formulating a good thesis statement, topic sentence, body paragraph, good transitions, ect. was useful but a bit confusing. Some of the chapter was very well laid out and I could understand the details, however, for me, a lot of it was hard to keep up with. I was able to succeed in understanding the material, it just took longer than I had originally anticipated. One thing that stuck out to me in the chapter was how he explained the writers perspective, how a writer analyzes the readers about an array of things. However, the biggest thing that stuck out to me was how as a writer, cares about the audience he is writing too. Writers have to be knowledgeable, and almost appease the style of writing they are doing to captivate the  audience and make them care.

In The Discourse of Academics, I found that Mike Rose didn't necessarily write his article with a direct thesis. He used an indirect method by jumping right into the article with a statement giving information about his background. This method still caught my attention as the reader, but still did it without directly pointing out the thesis or topic matter until later on in the article when he actually begins writing up front on the discourse of academics at the the third paragraph. An interesting detail was the ending of his article, leaving the reader with a question. This is a very effective way for the reader to consider the topics how students can improve their professional speech/writing. It makes us wonder, contemplate, and hopefully then to do something about it!

Response to The Discourse of Academics

Rose discusses a problem with how alienated the English language can be, which is stated in the second sentence of the article.  He discusses the gap between the educated style of using the English language and the non-educated style of using the English language.  Also, he wants to better educate those with lower writing levels by giving them more opportunities to write ("Students need more opportunities to write about what they're learning and guidance in the techniques and conventions of that writing" (Mike Rose 138)).
I agree with Rose when he mentioned that "the average university freshman will know what personality means and can figure out authoritarian; the difficulty will come from a lack of familiarity with the conceptual resonances that authoritarian personality has acquired in the discussions of sociologists and psychologists and political scientists" (Rose 137).  Most people without degrees, such as myself, understand more difficult phrases by breaking them up and analyzing their parts.  I've personally experienced the difficulty of understanding the English language and fitting into social groups but I educated myself simply by reading and writing beyond my comprehension.  Students need to be better taught on writing on a higher standard but they also need to learn and practice writing on their own.   

The Discourse of Academics

This article was about unprepared students due to language hinderance. Some students are not as loquacious as others and cannot as eloquently express themselves. Teachers can help out with this though by being understanding that not all students are on the same playing field simply because we are all relatively the same and age and of the same grade level. People progress faster than others and we need to be able to understand this and help the students work through this.

The Discourse of Academics

      The Discourse of Academics, by Mike Rose, is a article that presents problems of today. A lot of students today are completely lost in classes because of the language spoken throughout the class. Students are beginning to learn less and less because of the language presented in class, textbooks, etc. If students become more familiar with the vocabulary and language presented in class then they would have a better understanding of the material. Also, a lot of students do not participate in class discussions which make them even more confused, and sometimes even excluded.
      I loved the fact that Rose talked about his own personal encounter about the topic and expressed how he felt. I personally can't completely relate to the topic of feeling excluded, only because I always interact in class and make sure that I ask plenty of questions when I don't understand something. I think that learning has a lot to do with the environment you're in also. I say this because I feel like if students feel comfortable in the environment they are in then they may feel more comfortable to participate in class discussions which can further their understanding of the language going on in class among students, or with discussions led by the teacher. 
      Overall, I think this article was specifically directed to teachers. I think that everything starts out with the teacher. It is the teachers job to make sure every student fully understands material and to make the students feel welcomed and involved in the class so they can participate more to further their understanding of all material and discussions presented to the class.

Response to The Discourse of Academics

 The Discourse of Academics written by Mike Rose, is an article discussing about underprepared students. This is an issue in our society and a reason why some students don't understand or feel comfortable with class material being taught in schools due to unfamiliar language. I've experienced this my first year in college. I, at times struggle when I  hear words I dont't understand or don't hear often, which may throw me off an discussion.
 Teacher's can play a part in this problem by influential talk and helping student's feel more comfortable. With this student's are more likely to be included in discussions, as Rose mentions. It's a way that all can understand and not just a majority of a class. "Students need more opportunities to write about what they're learning and guidance in the techniques and conventions of that writing." (Rose 138) I agree with this and I believe it should be taught or developed at a younger age, which could help the students to understand language and become more comfortable or engaged  in conversations.
 Overall, I liked this article. It had some important information  and discussed ways that this problem can be worked on. This is an issue and would be great if addressed in today's society.

Response to The Discourse of Academics

Mike Rose's, The Discourse of Academics, is a journal article that talks about a problem happening today. Many students are under-prepared for the classes that they will encounter in their schools, because they are not familiar with the type of scholarly language used by the teacher, textbooks, or peers. Once students are more comfortable with their environment, they can become more comfortable with themselves and participate in discussions. Moreover, participating in the discussions can only increase their ability to further their understanding. "The more comfortable and skillful students become with this kind of influential talk, the more they will be included in further conversations...," (Rose 138). I completely agree with Mike Rose when he goes on to say that students need to have some opportunities to challenge their own ideas and hard-wired beliefs through discussion.
Even though I have never actually had a big problem like this of my own, I understand that a lot of students today do. This is definitely something worth thinking about and hopefully someone will help these students who don't feel prepared and are uncomfortable with their situation. Mike Rose has already provided multiple solutions to help address this problem. Some solutions that he suggested were to give the students opportunities to "develop writing strategies" and give them a chance to "talk about the ways the may have felt excluded." I think the main idea that Rose was trying to give out was that teachers need to make sure that every student feels included in each class and comfortable with themselves. If teachers can do this, then students will learn  more effectively and will be more successful in the future.

Response to The Discourse of Academics

      Throughout the article, I could understand where Rose was coming from, but had never really encountered this problem for myself. I don't necessarily speak in a completely different way at school as I do when I am around friends. I suppose growing up in the suburbs and being in honors and AP style classes guided and molded the way that I speak and write, even in everyday circumstances. However, I can see how his argument about the way students are being taught is relevant for any classroom setting. I have seen my peers struggle with understanding dialect and terms they had never heard before. It is a very real problem that needs attending to.
     As far as the article itself, I really liked this statement, "Discussion...you could almost define a university education as an initiation into a variety of powerful ongoing discussions, an initiation that can occur only through the repeated use of new language in the company of others." In my limited time here at OU, I have found that I have learnt just as much, if not more, from discussions that I have had with peers as I have sitting in a lecture. It was also interesting to me that the author himself had gone through similar circumstances regarding various cultural differences.
     I was especially impressed with the way Rose discussed the fact that underprivileged students, "...need more opportunities to write about what they're learning and guidance in the techniques and conventions of that writing..." Writing is something that many students both old and new have problems with. Getting their point across, using the correct dialect, grammar, and punctuation. There is a mountain of things for students to remember when writing, but I think that if our society were really to tackle this problem, we would have to start from the ground up. Start at a younger age and make the English language something that students can be comfortable with.
     Overall, I enjoyed this article. It gave me an insight into something that in my 19 years I had never really thought about.

Response to The Discourse of Academics

The Discourse of Academics which was written by, Mike Rose in 1944, is a journal questioning how we can reasonably bridge the language gap between the scholars and the non-scholars or just inexperienced in the realm of scholars. I myself have never encountered a problem that could correlate with his experience but completely see the problem he is referring to. He suggests early on that it is a matter of vocabulary but quickly argues this point by saying that the idea of this would be a lazy way to say they're fixing a much more complex problem. He then goes on to talk about how all students basically live or die by their opportunity to partake in the growing of their scholarly abilities. Because with out this opportunity they lose out on the opportunity to "gain access to further conceptual tools and resources," (Mike Rose 138). And with out this opportunity they will be excluded from many discussions that will help them develop into a part of the academic community.

He then talks about how we can break down the social barriers that could possibly threaten the integrity of a freshman student, saying that they need more time to receive the techniques of scholarly writing. They need to be able to discuss all their new learning's and how they are interrupted by previously taught bad habits. And just being able to discuss problems with like minded classmates. With these solutions that could easily be implemented into any college it seems ridiculous that they aren't today.

How to Post on Our Blog

First, make sure that you have accepted the invitation to become an author or contributor to our blog. Otherwise, you will not see the our blog come up on your dashboard.

I think the easiest way to navigate to our blog is from Blackboard, so I'll start there. You can also just navigate to the Blogger homepage <http://www.blogger.com>

This the home page of our Blackboard. What you want to do is click on the link that reads "ENG 151 blog."

^^^ This one. ^^^

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Sign-in using the account we created in class. If you don't have an account yet, please create one using the e-mail to which I sent the invite to be an author.

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After you've typed up a response, just click "Publish" and you are all set.

I hope this helps.

Remember, responses to Rose are due on Thursday morning.